Thursday 14 December 2006

Richard Dawkins: Making Atheism Even Stupider


Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. -- Terry Eagleton

Intellectual Christians are Richard Dawkins' worst nightmare, because they embody everything Dawkins wishes Christianity weren't. -- Me.

I picked up Dawkins' book The God Delusion at Borders expecting to page through some fascinating and enticing reductionistic arguments against the possibility of divine activity in nature and in human experience. Instead, I found myself forcing down my vomit just long enough to finish the second chapter (after which I needed the toilet to purge). My I.Q. must have dropped a good five points, owing to exposure to such low-quality pretentious rubbish. Pass the Bertrand Russell, please! Dawkins' book is so unsophisticated it should replace The Adventures of Taxi Dog on every second grade reading list.

His arguments (if they can even be called such; they're more like polemics) are superficial at best. Over and over again he zeroes in on extremely negative samples of religious activity and pretends that they represent religion in general (see below for a similar error made by Sir Dufus Elton John). For example he discusses "the violation of childhood by religion," and of course only focuses on the dark misdeeds of religious zealots (whose behavior is even criticized by religious people!), and Dawkins completely forgets that, actually, secularism and atheism have been far worse for children as we have seen in the last century under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and even in the west as pop culture dismisses the emotional damage from early sexual activity and overlooks the destruction of two-parent families. But in order to fake his case Dawkins attacks only the very worst of religion, citing very often the dregs of the theistic barrel, the worst of the faithful, to drive his argument. He can't handle the reality -- the larger, fuller, more beautiful picture of religious thought and life. (I suspect because doing so would ruin his already pathetic book.)

As another example he includes as fodder for his argument is "a letter that so damningly exposes the weakness of the religious mind, it is worth reading twice" (p 16). But it seems like he read it a hundred times... and then somehow thought he'd read a hundred different treatises on theology and devotional material, and deluded himself into thinking he was then literate in religious philosophy. Dawkins' notion of the "religious mind" is in reality only the worst samples of religious thought.

As for the truly intelligent (and even mainstream) religious thinkers, he dare not engage them without extracting only very superficial versions of their arguments and then knocking down those straw men that he has just contrived. Oftentimes his writing dissolves into obnoxious ranting and regurgitations of the same complaints commonly babbled by people who don't understand Christianity. He may focus on a couple important theologians (like Richard Swinburne), but he selects only those against whom he feels the strongest. He barely touches upon the theologians who interact with both science and religion -- such as Alister McGrath and John Polkinghorne (or T.F. Torrence for that matter). He also fails to confront Gerald Schroeder, the Jewish physicist whose book The Science of God was compelling enough even to convince the famous atheist philosopher Antony Flew, who has now adopted a satisfied acknowledgement of God. Dawkins almost completely ignores them. I think I know why. I've read their (extremely insightful and informed) material, and it blows Dawkins' anti-religious prejudice out of the water. Dawkins is incapable of dealing with the progress made by such scientific theologians. This is in part because he severely lacks the credentials to understand the intellectual milieu in which they write. Here's an interesting chart:

AuthorScientific DegreeCredential in Religion
Alister McGrathD.Phil., Molecular Biophysics (Oxford)M.A. Theology, first-class Honours (Oxford)
John PolkinghornePh.D., Particle Physics (Cambridge)Honorary Doctorate, Theology
Gerald SchroederPh.D., Earth Science; Ph.D., Nuclear Physics (both at M.I.T.)Orthodox Judaism
Richard DawkinsD.Phil., Zoology (Oxford)

Missing something? It seems to me that McGrath and Polkinghorne are far more informed on the thinking that handles science and religion than is Richard Dawkins. I have friends here at Oxford (e.g. my colleague Adam Chapman) with degrees in physics and in theology, all of whom could thoroughly obliterate Dawkins' naive commentary on religion. So instead of engaging McGrath, Polkinghorne, Torrence, and Schroeder (et al), Dawkins argues mainly against minor, outmoded samples of religious thought. As a result his book is easy to criticize because his arguments are tissue thin and porous.

Furthermore Dawkins holds a low and utterly uninformed view of theology itself: "I have yet to see any good reason to suppose that theology (as opposed to biblical history, literature, etc.) is a subject at all" (p 57). Time to get reading, Dawkins. There are some incredibly smart and far more widely read scholars who have been scientists and theologians. (I've already proved this point above.) Don't McGrath and Polkinghorne have far better credentials to comment on the relationship between science and religion than does Dawkins, who has formal training only in biology?

Dawkins also embarks on speculation about "the roots of religion" (pp 162-207). I'll save everybody a lot of time with this humble insight: if you look for the origin of religion, you've shot yourself in the foot before you even begin. This is primarily because you've assumed religion is a simple, easily definable, universally scrutable phenomenon. Well it's not. Read E.B. Tylor, Freud, James Frazer, Emile Durkheim, and even recent authors like Pascal Boyer (whom Dawkins cites favorably!) and see each one fail flat in their attempts to identify the original prototype of religion. There is no grand general unified reality about religion, much less about its roots. Fortunately, most scholars are now owning up to this (e.g. Jonathan Z. Smith), though some did even as far back as the 60's (like E.E. Evans-Pritchard and Wilfred Cantwell Smith). You know what this means? Dawkins' thinking is fifty years out of date!

Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist (and indeed a fine one), but in this book he pretends to be a historian -- yet he can't distinguish data and reason from propaganda and conjectural whimsy! He also pretends to be a sociologist, but knows nothing about faith-based communities except trite, superficial, rhetorical complaints made against them. Dawkins should stick with what he knows, rather than run through a laundry list of topics on which he's hardly done any reading (as is evidenced by his reliance on quotations from debates and speeches). Dawkins' earlier books (such as The Blind Watchmaker) were decent because he wrote what he knew and explained concepts such as natural selection extremely well, especially for those untrained in the biological sciences. But his latest churn is a blind drift into uncharted territory about which he has hardly made any effort to navigate responsibly.

I think the most insightful review I have come across is that by Madeleine Bunting, a columnist for The Guardian (one of the UK's most liberal and popular newspapers). She writes:
Behind unsubstantiated assertions, sweeping generalisations and random anecdotal evidence, there's the unmistakable whiff of panic; [atheists] fear religion is on the march again.

There's an aggrieved frustration that they've been short-changed by history; we were supposed to be all atheist rationalists by now. Secularisation was supposed to be an inextricable part of progress. Even more grating, what secularisation there has been is accompanied by the growth of weird irrationalities from crystals to ley lines. As GK Chesterton pointed out, the problem when people don't believe in God is not that they believe nothing, it is that they believe anything.

There's an underlying anxiety that atheist humanism has failed. Over the 20th century, atheist political regimes racked up an appalling (and unmatched) record for violence. Atheist humanism hasn't generated a compelling popular narrative and ethic of what it is to be human and our place in the cosmos; where religion has retreated, the gap has been filled with consumerism, football, Strictly Come Dancing and a mindless absorption in passing desires. Not knowing how to answer the big questions of life, we shelve them - we certainly don't develop the awe towards and reverence for the natural world that Dawkins would want. So the atheist humanists have been betrayed by the irrational, credulous nature of human beings; a misanthropy is increasingly evident in Dawkins's anti-religious polemic and among his many admirers.

This is the only context that can explain Dawkins's programme, a piece of intellectually lazy polemic which is not worthy of a great scientist. He uses his authority as a scientist to claim certainty where he himself knows, all too well, that there is none.

Terry Eagleton has some insightful and incisive remarks for the bumbling atheist:
Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology.
Eagleton continues,
Dawkins considers that all faith is blind faith, and that Christian and Muslim children are brought up to believe unquestioningly. Not even the dim-witted clerics who knocked me about at grammar school thought that. For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief. (Where, given that he invites us at one point to question everything, is Dawkins’s own critique of science, objectivity, liberalism, atheism and the like?)
As if this weren't enough, another philosophical and theological heavyweight Alister McGrath (himself a microbiology Ph.D.) offers a response critiquing more Dawkins' very method:

You'll have to read the rest of Eagleton's review and McGrath's book (when it comes out) to see them blaze all across Dawkins' sloppy landfill. Even many of Dawkins' fellow atheists are embarassed at his empty, irresponsible rhetoric.

Alister McGrath discusses his realization of God in this lecture delivered to the Royal Society of Arts on 13 March 2006 (downloadable as PDF Here):
When I was an atheist, back in the late 1960s, everything seemed so simple. A bright new dawn lay just around the corner. Religion would be relegated to the past, a grim and dusty relic of a bygone age. God was just a cosy illusion for losers, best left to very inadequate and sad people. It was just a matter of waiting for nature to take its course. I was in good company in believing this sort of thing. It was the smug, foolish and fashionable wisdom of the age. Like flared jeans, it was accepted enthusiastically, if just a little uncritically.

I arrived at Oxford from school a Marxist, believing that religion was the cause of all the world’s evils. As an intellectual Darwinian, it seemed perfectly clear to me that the idea of God was on its way out, and would be replaced by fitter and more adapted ideas – like Marxism. I was a “bright”, to use Professor Dennett’s language.

But it didn’t work out like that. At Oxford – to my surprise – I discovered Christianity. It was the intellectually most exhilarating and spiritually stimulating thing I could ever hope to describe – better even than chemistry, a wonderful subject which I had thought to be the love of my life and my future career. I went on to gain a doctorate for research in molecular biophysics from Oxford , and found that immensely exciting and satisfying. But I knew I had found something better – like the pearl of great price that Jesus talks about in the gospel, which is so beautiful and precious that it overshadows everything. It was intellectually satisfying, imaginatively engaging, and aesthetically exciting.

But this raised questions for me. I had been taught that science disproved God. That all good scientists were atheists. That science was good, religion evil. It was a hopelessly simplified binary opposition, not unlike George Orwell, in Animal Farm: Four legs good, two legs bad. But it suited me just fine then.

Yet my new-found Christian faith brought a new sense of fulfilment and appreciation to my studies and later my research in the natural sciences. I saw nature as charged with the grandeur and majesty of God. To engage with nature was to gain a deeper appreciation of the divine wisdom. I gave up the sciences to read theology, but I still love the sciences, and follow the literature, especially in evolutionary biology. And above all, I have a passion for relating Christian theology to the natural sciences.
McGrath is Dawkins' worst nightmare, because McGrath is everything Dawkins wishes Christianity weren't.

17 comments:

Pants said...

to write a book full of fake knowledge and to fear true wisdom...oh how great the fall of man

michael jensen said...

Way to go!

Prometheus said...

Not convinced by Dawkins; Not convinced by you - sorry.
You're both too intellectual. So what if all your high-brow friends slag off Dawkins? Or Dawkins' book is a polemic rant? We don't care. People without Doctorates and letters after their name can think for themselves you know?
In fact, we are generally better informed and less dogmatic.

I'm an atheist because it is the only thing that makes sense.
Read my blog if you wish to see how people without the benefit of an expensive education and a bottomless research library, think on this matter.
http://innocentcivilians.blogspot.com/
Cheers
Prometheus.

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

If you really could think for yourself you'd deal with my arguments instead of dismissing them because they're "too intellectual."

I gather from your comments that you admit you are less intelligent? You must be if you think that we're just here at Oxford for "letters after our name." Yeah, that's all we're here for, if it makes you feel better.

That atheism is "the only thing that makes sense" is one of the most closed-minded comments I've heard so far this year. In fact, you sound like Dawkins! ...But didn't you just say that you're "not convinced by Dawkins"?

Conclusion = you're so mindless you buy into Dawkins' garbage while still managing to convince yourself that people like you "can think for themselves."

This is the problem with people who shun intelligence -- they always shoot themselves in the foot instead of trying to critically discern what is accurate and what is sophomoric.

Prometheus said...

Wow! Touched a nerve there I think.
You missed my point; deliberately I'd guess?
I am not saying that I shun intelligence; only that, with all the intelligence in the world and no matter how many eminent philosophers and theologians you can name-drop into your theories; the fact remains that - Your guess is as good as mine.

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

Nonsense! 'Your guess is as good as mine' is just a feeble attempt to level the playing field by falsely over-simplifying the issue. I personally find it a ridiculous phrase, especially since calling it a 'guess' belies the very thoughtful attempts to assess the world around us. Would you tell someone who rejected Darwinian evolution that 'your guess is as good as mine'? Neither would I.

Do you think that referring to people who've thought through this issue is merely 'name dropping'? It's much more than that -- just like a graduate degree is much more than letters after a name. It makes contact with other thinkers so that there is a dialogue. It is an acknowledgement of the fact that nobody thinks in a vacuum. (NOBODY.)

What really troubles me is that I KNOW you're more intelligent than this, because you're in the military, and to serve in such a way means you have indeed acquired an education. I respect and honor your service, and wish you would pay more careful attention to this criticism of Dawkins.

Doug Cooper said...

Hello,

Thanks for the thoughtful blog.

I am an atheist, interested in the nature of religious belief. You believe, inter alia, that Christ was the son of God, was God himself, and died for the innumerable sins of human beings.

This strikes me as an extraordinary belief. How might you seek to persuade me of its truth? Or, if it is, in some sense, not an object of belief suitable for the usual persuasive processes of reason and evidence, how might one justify the exceptionalism accorded this belief?

Thanks.

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

Dear Doug,

I share your interest in religious belief. (I have recently been doing research in both cognitive psychology and in neurology with respect to rationality, belief, and decision-making. I still have many questions, as I am only just scratching the surface.)

From an atheistic perspective (and from some types of theistic perspectives as well), these are indeed 'extraordinary' beliefs. However, I maintain (as would most thoughtful philosophers and theologians) that they are still rational. This is why Dawkins and other atheistic 'fundamentalists' are highly bigoted; without justification, they accuse theology of irrationality and, hence, absurdity. This perspective was philosophically compelling in the 1950s (with the likes of Antony Flew and other logical positivists), but it has since been thoroughly overridden by further insight into the problems involved in logical positivism. I won't go into the 40+ years of philosophy since then, but I could recommend some good books both by atheists and Christians acknowledging the rationality of theology.

Yet rationality does not confirm truth; nearly every theological and cosmological system I have studied is rational, but they cannot all be true. Perhaps none of them are true. Or perhaps a few of them are varying degrees of partially true, partially false.

But your question is how I would justify these abnormal results to an atheist. While I can show that they are decidedly rational, I cannot show that they are true if you have already decided that there is no God. Instead, before discussing the incarnation, we would discuss the existence of God. If there is no God, then obviously there could be no incarnation, no atonement, no forgiveness of sins (in that manner), etc. If there IS a God, however, then these things are possible.

So what are the odds? I did my undergraduate degree in physics, and along with other physicists found it quite remarkable that ratio constants that we have uncovered in basic formulae depicting the laws of nature (e.g. relativity, quantum wave functions, and gravitation) had to have exactly these critical values in order for supernovae to have created the elements above hydrogen necessary for life (N, C, P, and O). This suggests that the nature of the universe depends on a 'will' for higher elements, a selection toward what would otherwise be the result of an extremely low probability.

It is also compelling that the universe follows consistent natural laws that are universal, permanent, absolute, and of mathematical order.

I can only very briefly gloss over these thoughts on the universe and its cause. They have been very highly developed by people much more intelligent than I am, and since the 50's the pendulum has been swinging in the direction of theism in the scientific community -- or at least the intellectually honest segment therof. In fact one of those positivists, Antony Flew, now believes that there is a God.

On a more personal note, was there something (or a series of events) that occurred in your life that led you to reject God?

There is someone here at Oxford right now who is doing research on the nature of unbelief, including (it is my guess) how people become dogmatically atheistic.

You seem to be someone genuinely interested in philosophers and theologians (and, perhaps, philosophy and theology too). I.e., you are NOT a Dawkins clone! I am happy to share with you what I learn about cognitive science and psychology of religion. If you read most of the material written by serious thinkers in recent decades, you may see that the case for atheism is actually only tissue thin, and that the possibility of God is far more intellectually compelling / satisfying.

I look forward to your response and to further exchange of information and ideas.

Yours,
Jacob

Doug Cooper said...

Hi

Thanks for the really interesting response.

My academic background is in literature and in law. So I can't offer anything of scientific substance in relation to the 'critical values' you note, although I have heard references to this before. I do however have a few thoughts in relation to it.

Is it possible that, if these 'critical values' were different, the universe would nevertheless have developed in such a way as to be capable of supporting life? It is beyond my wit to advocate this counterfactual, but so also to dismiss it.

Next, the (I'm afraid) Dawkins argument. You might well explain the particularities of the universe by reference to a God, but this God then requires a further explanation of a similar type, unless you can establish why an exception should be made.

My final thought on these constants is: one could take them as evidence for the existence of a divine being (although I don't think I would myself). But evidence is some way from proof; and one would not usually form a conclusion from establishing a mere possibility. I suppose this is the kind of question I am thinking about when I talk about exceptionalism.

One thing that tends to happen in such discussions is that the abstract question of the existence of God becomes conflated with the truth claims of any given religion. I think this is an error. Specific religions involve very detailed historical truth claims, and very specific theological doctrines, and must be much harder to evidence or persuade. Of course, this goes to the heart of the issue: is 'faith' a valid form of knowledge? If so, how can we relate it to inductive and deductive reasoning?

I should say at this point that your, very thoughtful, response to my earlier post contained nothing specific about Christ. This is what I mean about conflation.

I know you've said that theological systems are rational, but I suppose my view at the moment would be that such systems can indeed incorporate reason, but will always involve, at their core, a contention which (usually explicitly) rejects reasoning and appeals to faith. The question is whether such a contention would itself need to be justified on rational grounds. I just cannot see why it wouldn't have to do so.

In terms of the personal aspect you invite, I went to Cambridge, so of course I knew a lot of scientists, and a lot of Christians. I used to attend chapel every now and again, a college faith discussion group, and went away on a weekend retreat, although I only prowled the fringes of belief, and would never have described myself as a Christian. There was no special event that affected my beliefs, I don't think. However, it is fair to say that I am more wary now of religion than I used to be, or, rather, more wary of certain kinds of arguments in its favour. I guess I think it is important to retain an objection to religion on what I would regard as principled intellectual grounds along the lines covered above: because although many religions offer models of conduct and accomplishments of great moral beauty, there is no guarantee that they always do so, and the most elementary objection to a belief 'system' is that it is founded on untruths. I regard this as axiomatic. It gives principle and shape to objections regarding, for example, some religious views on stem cell research, or the teaching of ID in schools, or the moral and legal status of homosexuals.

As pure abstraction, separate from any specific religion, I cannot decide whether I think (a) human beings are probably the kind of thing that could never know whether God exists, if he is the kind of thing we generally define him as, or whether (b) the matter is simply evidence-led, and the evidence for God is not compelling. Philosophical logic can probably describe this dilemma, but I cannot and it is probably a good idea to conclude this quasi-rant.

Can you tell I'm training to be paid by how much I say, and for how long?

Best

China Rising said...

Blogger... please comment on the above passage, which raises many good questions

Plus...

I've read all through your site, and you have attacked Dawkin's personally and his arguments superficially.

You've mentioned that there are great scientists who dispute Dawkins and could blow him out of the water....

but there seems to be no arguments presented on this site at all

Even your McGrath quote, who you claim to be Dawkin's "worst nighmare" is just a whimsical outburst of how much he likes god....

"Yet my new-found Christian faith brought a new sense of fulfilment and appreciation to my studies and later my research in the natural sciences. I saw nature as charged with the grandeur and majesty of God."

This is NOT an argument

Please put up some arguments....

You seem passionate about this so, I'd like to see you pick apart Dawkins book piece by piece, stating your objections clearly with logical arguments at every turn.

I think this is what you should do....

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

You must not have read my blog. It's repleate with 'logical arguments at every turn,' as you request. If you can't see that, you need to get yourself up to date on the nature of human rationality and logic, because you're behind by at least 50 years. Here are a couple of suggestions:

Philosophy In The Flesh (Lakoff and Johnson, 1999)
The Evolution Of Rationality (ed. Shults, 2006)
The Roots of Reason (Papineau, 2003)

Read those before you think that I haven't been adequately logical. Most of what I did in this blog was expose how uninformed Dawkins is about religion and theology. That's both a personal and a substantive attack. ...I don't understand why you complain that I attacked his arguments 'superficially;' his arguments are superficial in the first place! They hardly merit anything more than I've given them.

You asked for some great scientists who would rip Dawkins a new proverbial bunghole. Sure -- how about Francis Collins, the director of the Human Genome Project (you know, the first group to completely map the entire human genome?), writing a recent book entitled 'The Language of God' (2006) in which he discusses his conjoined belief in God and in Darwinian evolution. Or Darrel Falk, an evolutionary biologist. Or Jürgen Ehlers, a theoretical physicist. Or a friend of mine here at Oxford, Ard Louis. In the blog itself I mentioned Gerald Schroeder (maybe you skipped that part). And these are only contemporaries -- Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, and Michael Faraday were very much believers in God.

I don't have time to pick apart Dawkins' book 'piece-by-piece.' Any halfway intelligent critical reader can do that (you clearly did not). I already mentioned a couple of his points and dealt with them.

Because of his careless, uninformed bloviating (among other unflattering habits in his writing), Dawkins is an embarassment to atheism (a stance which I normally have great respect for). But the hoi polloi will always pay lots of money to swallow such anti-religious prejudice whole. Hey, it worked with The Da Vinci Code, after all!

Anonymous said...

Hi. I just now read most of your blog and checked out a few of your responses to comments people have been nice enough to leave and I must tell you that the heaping amounts of sarcasm, vitriol and blatant insults you serve up are more than a little bit off putting and do seem completely incongruent with your blog's stated purpose:

"helping people who are interested in thinking honestly and intelligently on this elusive topic."

I mean, are you even reading what you are writing? Who is your audience exactly? ...and is this really the tone that a Christian would use? Do you think you sound like someone that anyone would approach for spiritual guidance?

You're a big boy so you should be able to make your points without being so gleefully hateful.

You know, even if you don't like someone or their opinions, the best approach is always one where you rise to the occasion and respond with a calm, well-reasoned, gracious answer...or criticism.

It's that whole Christ-like, Godly approach that I don't hear in your writing; instead I hear a guy with a huge chip on his shoulder.

-Sean

Anonymous said...

Hi wow what a blog here is some thoghts...

Hi my name is Carlos (carlos.maline@homecall.co.uk) and i am real. Real in the sense that am an ordinary person with a lay persons opinion of theology. I was raised a christian and like most children of christians, never really knew the true nature of life as a human.

I was led to believe that humans were superiour to all the animals, that the world was put here for our benefit, that was fine , i could see that, after all we no other biological entity had achieved what we had. Then I became an adult, i grew up, i realised that actually, all other organisms live in evolutionary stable states, the prepsosition that an explaination for thier current evolutionary state of existance is not applicable. So, i ask, why do humans?

The answer to this is found in every single Dawkins book written. I say this not as an outright athiest, but simply from the facts that are present within the texts.

We have to be thankful not for some mysterious superbeing, but from the fact that humans can IMAGINE, by natural selection of that trait, the world in which we live. This model that every human perceives, has enabled all the progress such as, (and i put this list for observation)

Sanitation
Cooked food
Metaphysical Education
Language
Emotional interpretaion and Education
Medicine
Engineering
(and the list goes on)

To conlude, the issue is not with Dawkins or any of the other name dropped authors (for which i know you are good friends with, hmmm), but with your opinion of human exsistance and what it means to you if we succeed or fail to survive the next natural catastrophie / disaster.

ps apologies for grammer or spleeling, but i am not a university type. I am an engineer for the RAF

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

Dear Carlos,

Thank you very much for your comments. I would agree that Dawkins' earlier books, especially The Blind Watchmaker, are scientifically and argumentatively legitimate, for the most part (exceptions being his belief in 'memes' and his anthropomorphic claim that genes are 'selfish'). But when you say 'the answer to this is found in every single Dawkins book written,' I think you're being quite careless. The God Delusion is a largely unfounded rant against 'religion' (which defies definition in the first place) and is extremely inadequate in its account of such, not least because it neglects at least two decades of scholarship in cognitive science (which, he should note, makes full use of evolution because evolution is crucial to our understanding of the brain). I would recommend to you Justin Barrett's 2004 monograph entitled 'Why Would Anyone Believe in God?' There are also some excellent articles by Stewart Guthrie on animism and anthropomorphism in animals.

What Dawkins neglects is that it's perfectly natural to believe in God or gods. This has been proven from several angles, but most notably in evolutionary and experimental psychology (Barrett, Guthrie, Pyysiainen, etc).

By the way, this often looks like simple name-dropping, but it's really a convenient way to refer to collections of philosophical ideas and scientific arguments. Once you start interacting with lots of people, you don't have a choice -- you must use names.

I agree with the conclusions of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology, that religious belief is completely reducible to a) Neurological processes, b) Biochemistry, c) Physics, and ultimately d) Math. Every human being is a mechanism.

Note, however -- this has nothing to do with whether there really is a God. And this is Dawkins' biggest stupor; he thinks that the scientific method has something to say about what is non-scientific.

It may surprise you that only about 40% of scientists are atheists. I think their atheism is more emotionally driven than it is rational.

Don't just blindly accept everything you read by Dawkins; read everything with a critical mind. I know you're capable of this because people in the military tend to be quite intelligent (and I owe you respect and I thank you for your service).

I look forward to your further comments, should you choose to respond.

BARBARIAN BRAIN said...

Responding to Doug Cooper (who wrote on 10 July 2007):

Many apologies for not getting back to you sooner!

I find very interesting two of your comments:
__________________________
such [theological] systems can indeed incorporate reason, but will always involve, at their core, a contention which (usually explicitly) rejects reasoning and appeals to faith.
-------
the most elementary objection to a belief 'system' is that it is founded on untruths. I regard this as axiomatic.
______________________

There will always be 'faith-based' material about which we are forced to reason. This is because we obtain many beliefs about the world non-reflectively and intuitively (e.g. I cannot walk through walls). These core statements of faith are what you call axiomatic; they are assumptions formed by and based on our embodied experience of the world. Our brains are pattern-recognition machines.

So you ask 'is faith a valid form of knowledge?' My response would be 'usually.' This is because we use faith all the time -- I have faith that my computer won't crash in the next minute (and haven't saved this response). Faith is, in fact, much MORE a part of our daily life than is reason. -- Not that the two are enemies (far from it) -- reason is our way of navigating the many faith-statements we have already accepted, and reason may lead us to reject some of those statements. But faith always pervades the beginning, middle, and end. Our reasoning is intuitive like that. ...Just the way our brains have evolved.

You considered it a conflation when I didn't mention Christ while discussing some of the universe's alleged fine-tuning. First off, I don't have all the time in the world, and there's a lot to talk about with respect to the specificity of Christ. Second, most skeptics (in my experience) aren't interested in learning about Christ if they don't believe there's a God in the first place (hence no possibility of resurrection).

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this over the last two months, and have realized that it might be best to begin with the historical Jesus after all. All the theological specifics could only come from sages/prophets anyway. Question becomes, who do you trust to divulge information about God (if there is one, or several)?

Long discussion, because there are lots who make the claim to speak for God / the creator. The evidence points unequivocally to Jesus as the primary candidate, not only because of the historical reliability of the earliest gospel accounts, but also because his remarkability is recognized by (vastly) more people in the world than any other single historical figure -- not just by Christians but also Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and even Atheists (including Richard Dawkins). This is suggestive that we should pay close attention to him.

You also mentioned 'evidence' versus 'proof.' I'll say it straight -- there is no such thing as proof, either in science or in theology or in philosophy. This is another reason why faith plays a substantial role in all human thought. No matter what someone tries to 'prove,' there will always be reasons to doubt (even if they don't seem rational). Does this mean we can't really 'know' anything? Well knowledge/memory and imagination are almost identical, neurologically. We'll need to discuss the nature of knowledge (attempting empirical responsibility in light of the neurosciences) to talk more about evidence/proof/faith/belief.

Apologies that it has taken me so long to respond to your thoughtful comments!

Anonymous said...

Brian

thank oyu for your thoughtful comments, i will endevour to read the material you suggested, and i thhank you for your appreciation of my service career.

A point to note about emotionally driven atheism over rationality seems rather conflicting. You yourself claimed to "agree" with the scientific (hence rational) conclusions of evolution and that humans are in essence biological machines. With that can you not agree that through natural selection genes would appear to ACT selfishly in order for the most appropriate biological machine to prosper given the conditions in which it exists.

If you find yourself agreeing with this argument, then the question of whether we are made in Gods image is irrelevant. I see no genetic advantage to a "faith" driven gene in an environment that requires the most effective means for survival.

I look forward to your response

Anonymous said...

Well its seems this blog has ended on a high note. There has been no response from some of the ardent bloggers who critise Dawkins.

My last post called for Barbarian Brian to justify how he considers mechanised life forms to be constructed in a way other than descrete and non ramdom genetic evolution thus refuting religion as a nature of creation. It appears he or nobody else has a comment to such. Evolution is one of the simplist models o understand.

Why must we as humans over complicate matters, of importance. I do consider the origin of species extremely important, and notwithstanding breaking the traditional lifestyles that we have devoloped over the centuries, we MUST teach our children the difference between Truth and Non Truth.

It is our duty as parents to give our children as much useful knowledge as possible so that the natural tendancy for our genes to develop through the generations is permitted. I tend to think like this...

"if we restrict the mental development of our eager genes, we all suffer. this develops into a gene pool that becomes stagnated by unfree thinkers, and gullible automotons that zealously oppose anything that tries to explain the improbable."

Ahhh thank you.